I quite agree, Mike.
Your thoughts members.
Spieker-Loft wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 7:49 pm
Thats good to know and thats why i asked about the dynamics of it over there. Wasn't judging it was more just asking on how things work over there
You have to know your onions to be honest with you
Some Fed's have say 600 birds in the race but they might be harder to win than a Fed with 1,800 birds
I find reading about the racing in the UK and Germany very interesting.
It's quite different here.
There's two sorts of racing. There's city racing, like in Sydney or Melbourne. In Melbourne there are 5 Federations and many many thousands of pigeons are sent every week. There are many people from European countries and Malta in the big cities and there is a strong tie to pigeon racing. It is in fact a big thing. This is why there are so many imported Euro speed pigeons. You need fast ones to compete.
Out in the country, or'the bush' as it's called, it's a whole different game. Many clubs exist in the bush, but a lot are small. Where I used to live in Bendigo there are two clubs and about a couple of dozen flyers. They are well spread out and the pigeons often have to fly a long way on their own line to their lofts.
The numbers may not look impressive, but with the terrain and the hawks and doing it alone, you need good pigeons just to get them home. You need bloody good pigeons to win. You need top pigeons to win them in a row.
It's quite different here.
There's two sorts of racing. There's city racing, like in Sydney or Melbourne. In Melbourne there are 5 Federations and many many thousands of pigeons are sent every week. There are many people from European countries and Malta in the big cities and there is a strong tie to pigeon racing. It is in fact a big thing. This is why there are so many imported Euro speed pigeons. You need fast ones to compete.
Out in the country, or'the bush' as it's called, it's a whole different game. Many clubs exist in the bush, but a lot are small. Where I used to live in Bendigo there are two clubs and about a couple of dozen flyers. They are well spread out and the pigeons often have to fly a long way on their own line to their lofts.
The numbers may not look impressive, but with the terrain and the hawks and doing it alone, you need good pigeons just to get them home. You need bloody good pigeons to win. You need top pigeons to win them in a row.
Greetings from the land down under. 
Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for verily, he shall not be disappointed.
Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for verily, he shall not be disappointed.
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Spieker-Loft
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I find it very interesting aswell. We all enjoy and love the same sport and in general the sport is the everywhere pigeons getting liberated and whoever is home fastest is the winner. But yet it seems so different everywhere regardless of the core beeing the same.Murray wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 10:21 pm I find reading about the racing in the UK and Germany very interesting.
It's quite different here.
There's two sorts of racing. There's city racing, like in Sydney or Melbourne. In Melbourne there are 5 Federations and many many thousands of pigeons are sent every week. There are many people from European countries and Malta in the big cities and there is a strong tie to pigeon racing. It is in fact a big thing. This is why there are so many imported Euro speed pigeons. You need fast ones to compete.
Out in the country, or'the bush' as it's called, it's a whole different game. Many clubs exist in the bush, but a lot are small. Where I used to live in Bendigo there are two clubs and about a couple of dozen flyers. They are well spread out and the pigeons often have to fly a long way on their own line to their lofts.
The numbers may not look impressive, but with the terrain and the hawks and doing it alone, you need good pigeons just to get them home. You need bloody good pigeons to win. You need top pigeons to win them in a row.
We're different characters you and I LeonSpieker-Loft wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 7:17 pm All good mate you just didnt know the dynamics of how stuff works here which is different to over in the UK
Overall im pleased with my performance so far. Given the competition in my combine where people win 7th ace hen in all of germany etc im very proud of my 3x1st and i think if im proud of it thats all that matters to be honest
Not saying better or worse, just different
You see, there's no performance that ever made me "happy"
I work so well with Gary and Niall Gordon 'cos they're the same too - they are never happy
When they had the first 25 in the NIPA (Never done before and I doubt will ever be done again) you'd think Gary had lost a tenner and found a penny. When I won I was never "happy". If I won I analysed where was the backup? If the backup was there then why didn't I win by more? Was all the trapping perfection? I was the master at finding a negative of any positive.
All I'm saying is if you aim for perfection you'll rarely find it, but if you can come as close as you can to it then you're a handful for those you compete against. That was always my mentality. When I went to bed on Saturday night I hit the "reset" button and it was game-on for next week then. Feed off the good performances and use sub-standard ones as the fuel to drive you on
About Experts and Experts...
Since I have started up "Winning" I don't really have the time to be that active anymore and post reactions to discussion groups. For quite some time I read the discussions on the South-African SAPML, where the past week the discussion was on the subject of experts. Better described: pigeon fanciers with quite some knowledge in the field of selection/grading. Most of the time the reactions to the work of the expert are negative. One likes to tell about how many times the expert was wrong in his judgment.
Bertus Nel started his contribution to SAPML the same way. But turned it around by stating the expert he had scored on his loft, besides 2 wrong judgments, 128 on 130 possible. He and I thought this was an exceptionally high percentage: 98.46%
To be able to score that high certain things must have been around:
*many good birds
*very good care resulting in excellent condition
*a fancier that knows what he is doing
*When these things are present it is a lot easier for the expert, but still the percentage is very good and very high.
Bertus also mentioned what a well-known big Belgian name stated when he told a reporter that he was a very happy man when he bred five good ones out of a total of 100 youngsters. Bertus thought this number of good birds was low. But I think the word "good" makes the difference here.
If the Belgian champ meant that those 5 good ones were 5 good racers, then I agree with Bertus that the Belgian champ should go back to school again. But if he meant that the 5 good ones all 5 were good breeders I would like to exchange lofts with him right away. To breed on an annual basis 5 good breeders I think is exceptional. I can't manage this.
In my opinion a good breeder is a pigeon to breed very well over several generations and that with different partners. Such birds are rare and you now understand why I think 5/100 is high. I think this is what the champ meant and if I'm right I'm curious to know what the name of that Belgian champ is...
Alright, I went off the subject experts. To get that title a pigeon fancier that dares to go and select elsewhere needs to have a great deal of knowledge and experience. That means: Study. Visit lofts. Look into strains and study how they were formed. Visit auctions. And handle many, many birds and being able to store the feeling, the knowledge and the experience.
The best expert in my opinion is Piet de Weerd, a man who has a photographic memory plus the gift to combine data quickly and draw conclusions. Those are rare but exceptional gifts.
Most experts are not so gifted. Most of times they make use of knowledge of people and with this in hand they often are able to pick the best ones out. And they tell the owner of the birds what he really wants to hear: "You have a lot of very good birds in your lofts." That is a very positive message in the ear of the fans and is being told to everyone willing to listen to it. But except from a good feeling the expert did not help us advance in the way we wanted it.
In my opinion Piet de Weerd is top of the bill. Why?? Simple: because he dares to point out the best breeders. And to pair them up. This suggestion really can help us move forward. Shortly after his leave fans do not feel good, because most of the birds were not found suitable for the breeding loft. But the feeling changes if after a couple of years. The offspring of Piet's suggestions start to devastate the competition. For most fans racing is number one in sport. I think they are very wrong in this. Breeding is the true number one. Piet has studied all his life the characteristics influencing the breeding and this has made his name in the sport forever.
Most fans don't want to dive so deep into the matter to gather knowledge, or are simply not able to detect the important links. Of course the last is also possible. That's why fans often concentrate on a few not really important matters. And are easily being fooled... Without real knowledge one is an easy target for impressions and PR, paid for or not. Strains. Fashion. Pedigrees. Etc. You’ll understand what I mean. And each time you fall for it again...
Last Sunday evening I was phoned by a fancier from the southern part of Holland who races in strong competition. On a sale he had bought a bird at a cheap price being bred by myself. And he wanted to know what strain it was.. He couldn't understand why the bird was so cheap, as to his idea it was a good one... And the funny thing was he didn't have the slightest idea to whom he was talking to.. I left it that way and told him the bird had a lot of pure Janssen blood in it and the father raced very well for me. Then the conversation ended.
I couldn't understand at all what goes into the minds of pigeon fanciers. A week before the phone call I had visited the man who conducted the sale in question. My visit was about a total round of youngsters plus a series of late breds out of the best racers of my own loft a couple of years ago purchased by Bram Kooy of Heinenoord. I did my very best to select the best for him. Bram wanted them to be crossed into his family of Van De Wegen's (Aarden's) in order to get some extra speed into them. Of course everyone is okay with the fact the 15 birds that clicked into his family stayed in Heinenoord. The rest were put up for sale. I handled them all and found 20 birds on a total of 80 being worth while. Out of those 20 I purchased, 4 were out of pairs I cannot put together again because one of the partners died. During the auction I was surprised that fans talked to each other about the fact the birds went away so cheap and simply were forgetting to raise their hand for a bid. I think they couldn't tell the difference between good and bad, because there were real chances for all experts.
I think most fans present were not experts, but "experts". Or they were on a holiday. No, not quite true. When the 80 Van Breemen's were sold another 20 from the lofts of Cees and Manus Bosua from Dordrecht came under the hammer of the auctioneer and guess what happened: prices went straight up! What made the difference for the "experts"?? Right: the PR. Not on Bram Kooy's sale. He was honest and left it over to the buyers' decision. But to the PR in the magazines beforehand. One fancier loves PR and for another one, it is not important... But these things are a clear guideline for "experts". Offspring of PR-loving fans sell more easily. These you must have in your loft so you can get some of your investments back. I think it is a shame real quality doesn't seem to be the issue anymore on sales. Money has taken over. But who the hell am I to state this..??
I was never impressed by the big names. My best purchases often came out of small and not so known or totally unknown lofts. But I recognized breeding qualities in the birds offered for sale. In a well-oiled PR publicity machine I don't recognize breeding qualities. But it is possible. But to be able to detect that you need to have the knowledge to pick the birds out with breeding qualities. And birds off an unknown loft are often not liked and cheap. In the winter of 1986 I bought at the total auction of a certain Willem Beerda from Oranjewoud (Holland) a pair of Tournier's for not even a $1000. They produced in 1987 the 1st National Ace Young and one year later the 2nd National Orleans against 28,500 birds. Two years later the pair was purchased by John & Benny de Jonge from Canada where the offspring still keeps the fancy at a distance. No need to say that purchase was worth it in all possible directions.
When pigeons do not race for some reason and you hold a sale the fans are not interested at all in the first place. Birds are being sold for nickels and dimes. How is it possible birds stop performing or don't breed well? The loft does matter a lot. Move a successful racing team into a new loft and a big chance success is blown into the wind. Do the same with good breeders and they are not able to pass on natural vitality. Also for successful breeding the lofts matter. Sometimes even the nestbox… If success is disturbed somehow, then some important characteristics are present, but they are simply being suppressed. When you are an expert then certain circumstances offer real chances. If you concentrate on the market alone, better to stay home or drink a beer with the lads at the bar.
A lot of the well-known lofts own their fame to a favorable location. And they know it. This means that experts also must have a thorough understanding of the racing scenery. Wind, weather and location do matter a lot. But they don't influence real quality. The basket will decide the fans say. A known statement. But not out of the future. Is the race basket really that honest?? I dare to disagree and to trust my personal knowledge and experience. And you???? What about your knowledge and experience????
Expert or "expert" that is the question I ask you personally...
Steven van Breemen
Since I have started up "Winning" I don't really have the time to be that active anymore and post reactions to discussion groups. For quite some time I read the discussions on the South-African SAPML, where the past week the discussion was on the subject of experts. Better described: pigeon fanciers with quite some knowledge in the field of selection/grading. Most of the time the reactions to the work of the expert are negative. One likes to tell about how many times the expert was wrong in his judgment.
Bertus Nel started his contribution to SAPML the same way. But turned it around by stating the expert he had scored on his loft, besides 2 wrong judgments, 128 on 130 possible. He and I thought this was an exceptionally high percentage: 98.46%
To be able to score that high certain things must have been around:
*many good birds
*very good care resulting in excellent condition
*a fancier that knows what he is doing
*When these things are present it is a lot easier for the expert, but still the percentage is very good and very high.
Bertus also mentioned what a well-known big Belgian name stated when he told a reporter that he was a very happy man when he bred five good ones out of a total of 100 youngsters. Bertus thought this number of good birds was low. But I think the word "good" makes the difference here.
If the Belgian champ meant that those 5 good ones were 5 good racers, then I agree with Bertus that the Belgian champ should go back to school again. But if he meant that the 5 good ones all 5 were good breeders I would like to exchange lofts with him right away. To breed on an annual basis 5 good breeders I think is exceptional. I can't manage this.
In my opinion a good breeder is a pigeon to breed very well over several generations and that with different partners. Such birds are rare and you now understand why I think 5/100 is high. I think this is what the champ meant and if I'm right I'm curious to know what the name of that Belgian champ is...
Alright, I went off the subject experts. To get that title a pigeon fancier that dares to go and select elsewhere needs to have a great deal of knowledge and experience. That means: Study. Visit lofts. Look into strains and study how they were formed. Visit auctions. And handle many, many birds and being able to store the feeling, the knowledge and the experience.
The best expert in my opinion is Piet de Weerd, a man who has a photographic memory plus the gift to combine data quickly and draw conclusions. Those are rare but exceptional gifts.
Most experts are not so gifted. Most of times they make use of knowledge of people and with this in hand they often are able to pick the best ones out. And they tell the owner of the birds what he really wants to hear: "You have a lot of very good birds in your lofts." That is a very positive message in the ear of the fans and is being told to everyone willing to listen to it. But except from a good feeling the expert did not help us advance in the way we wanted it.
In my opinion Piet de Weerd is top of the bill. Why?? Simple: because he dares to point out the best breeders. And to pair them up. This suggestion really can help us move forward. Shortly after his leave fans do not feel good, because most of the birds were not found suitable for the breeding loft. But the feeling changes if after a couple of years. The offspring of Piet's suggestions start to devastate the competition. For most fans racing is number one in sport. I think they are very wrong in this. Breeding is the true number one. Piet has studied all his life the characteristics influencing the breeding and this has made his name in the sport forever.
Most fans don't want to dive so deep into the matter to gather knowledge, or are simply not able to detect the important links. Of course the last is also possible. That's why fans often concentrate on a few not really important matters. And are easily being fooled... Without real knowledge one is an easy target for impressions and PR, paid for or not. Strains. Fashion. Pedigrees. Etc. You’ll understand what I mean. And each time you fall for it again...
Last Sunday evening I was phoned by a fancier from the southern part of Holland who races in strong competition. On a sale he had bought a bird at a cheap price being bred by myself. And he wanted to know what strain it was.. He couldn't understand why the bird was so cheap, as to his idea it was a good one... And the funny thing was he didn't have the slightest idea to whom he was talking to.. I left it that way and told him the bird had a lot of pure Janssen blood in it and the father raced very well for me. Then the conversation ended.
I couldn't understand at all what goes into the minds of pigeon fanciers. A week before the phone call I had visited the man who conducted the sale in question. My visit was about a total round of youngsters plus a series of late breds out of the best racers of my own loft a couple of years ago purchased by Bram Kooy of Heinenoord. I did my very best to select the best for him. Bram wanted them to be crossed into his family of Van De Wegen's (Aarden's) in order to get some extra speed into them. Of course everyone is okay with the fact the 15 birds that clicked into his family stayed in Heinenoord. The rest were put up for sale. I handled them all and found 20 birds on a total of 80 being worth while. Out of those 20 I purchased, 4 were out of pairs I cannot put together again because one of the partners died. During the auction I was surprised that fans talked to each other about the fact the birds went away so cheap and simply were forgetting to raise their hand for a bid. I think they couldn't tell the difference between good and bad, because there were real chances for all experts.
I think most fans present were not experts, but "experts". Or they were on a holiday. No, not quite true. When the 80 Van Breemen's were sold another 20 from the lofts of Cees and Manus Bosua from Dordrecht came under the hammer of the auctioneer and guess what happened: prices went straight up! What made the difference for the "experts"?? Right: the PR. Not on Bram Kooy's sale. He was honest and left it over to the buyers' decision. But to the PR in the magazines beforehand. One fancier loves PR and for another one, it is not important... But these things are a clear guideline for "experts". Offspring of PR-loving fans sell more easily. These you must have in your loft so you can get some of your investments back. I think it is a shame real quality doesn't seem to be the issue anymore on sales. Money has taken over. But who the hell am I to state this..??
I was never impressed by the big names. My best purchases often came out of small and not so known or totally unknown lofts. But I recognized breeding qualities in the birds offered for sale. In a well-oiled PR publicity machine I don't recognize breeding qualities. But it is possible. But to be able to detect that you need to have the knowledge to pick the birds out with breeding qualities. And birds off an unknown loft are often not liked and cheap. In the winter of 1986 I bought at the total auction of a certain Willem Beerda from Oranjewoud (Holland) a pair of Tournier's for not even a $1000. They produced in 1987 the 1st National Ace Young and one year later the 2nd National Orleans against 28,500 birds. Two years later the pair was purchased by John & Benny de Jonge from Canada where the offspring still keeps the fancy at a distance. No need to say that purchase was worth it in all possible directions.
When pigeons do not race for some reason and you hold a sale the fans are not interested at all in the first place. Birds are being sold for nickels and dimes. How is it possible birds stop performing or don't breed well? The loft does matter a lot. Move a successful racing team into a new loft and a big chance success is blown into the wind. Do the same with good breeders and they are not able to pass on natural vitality. Also for successful breeding the lofts matter. Sometimes even the nestbox… If success is disturbed somehow, then some important characteristics are present, but they are simply being suppressed. When you are an expert then certain circumstances offer real chances. If you concentrate on the market alone, better to stay home or drink a beer with the lads at the bar.
A lot of the well-known lofts own their fame to a favorable location. And they know it. This means that experts also must have a thorough understanding of the racing scenery. Wind, weather and location do matter a lot. But they don't influence real quality. The basket will decide the fans say. A known statement. But not out of the future. Is the race basket really that honest?? I dare to disagree and to trust my personal knowledge and experience. And you???? What about your knowledge and experience????
Expert or "expert" that is the question I ask you personally...
Steven van Breemen
Mike, it just someone else's view on breeding. I myself like reading Stevens work, I think it gives more insight on breeding throughout Europe. On his readings I found out more about the chromosomes, which I thought how much it plays a part in the sport. i just feel it is really good to find out other peoples thoughts on the sport.
I would say mike with all your research in the sport, there may be others that made you sit and think. That is what the sport is all about, gathering knowledge any way we can. The internet plays that part, to help us.
When was first starting off in the sport, I took the advice of an elder fancier. To purchase some Hammond and whitteker grooters, I made a phone call and spoke to arrange a visit to the loft. I came away with 2 youngsters which cost me £60.00. that I had saved up. We only had the racing pigeon to read at the time, so it was head down and learn. If you wanted to better yourself, there were some top flyers around. Not long after I got the offer to work in Germany, on the black stuff. I was earning good money, and putting a fair chunk away. Before I left for Germany, I gave all my birds away. I had more time to think about, if I re-entered the sport I would I go about finding some Quality birds for breeding. So that is when I thought about visiting lofts around Europe.
Having read this Mike, I know this is true with some fanciers. A fellow club member is the same he topped the combine once and when I saw him he looked like a close friend had died. My question to you, is if you/they are never 'happy' winning, what do you/they get out of keeping pigeons? If you can look and feel depressed Winning, how do you/they act when losing?MIL wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2025 5:35 amWe're different characters you and I LeonSpieker-Loft wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 7:17 pm All good mate you just didnt know the dynamics of how stuff works here which is different to over in the UK
Overall im pleased with my performance so far. Given the competition in my combine where people win 7th ace hen in all of germany etc im very proud of my 3x1st and i think if im proud of it thats all that matters to be honest
Not saying better or worse, just different
You see, there's no performance that ever made me "happy"
I work so well with Gary and Niall Gordon 'cos they're the same too - they are never happy
When they had the first 25 in the NIPA (Never done before and I doubt will ever be done again) you'd think Gary had lost a tenner and found a penny. When I won I was never "happy". If I won I analysed where was the backup? If the backup was there then why didn't I win by more? Was all the trapping perfection? I was the master at finding a negative of any positive.
All I'm saying is if you aim for perfection you'll rarely find it, but if you can come as close as you can to it then you're a handful for those you compete against. That was always my mentality. When I went to bed on Saturday night I hit the "reset" button and it was game-on for next week then. Feed off the good performances and use sub-standard ones as the fuel to drive you on