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Information is the key.
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:03 pm
by Devo1956
I have always said information, about the family line is paramount when breeding. This is an example of what i would be looking for.
Re: Information is the key.
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:45 pm
by Andy
You say this is the type you would be looking for mate but why?
Don’t want to run it down but firstly if going on the eyesign I wouldn’t look to breed from it. The inner circle is very thin especially between 12 & 5.
Secondly yes very inbred. At first glance the pedigree looks good but all the results are from way back. Inbred to National 1!! This pigeon doesn’t even actually appear on the pedigree itself so must be at least 5 generations back. I can’t actually see any pigeon there that has even raced for the past 4 generations. I may be reading it wrong.
Sorry mate.
Re: Information is the key.
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:50 pm
by Andy
Just looked again and Nationaal 1 is in the pedigree once. GGGsire on the sires side. There is one pigeon with a race result. The GGdam on the dams side that won 1st against 481 pigeons.
Re: Information is the key.
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:55 pm
by Devo1956
Andy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:45 pm
You say this is the type you would be looking for mate but why?
Don’t want to run it down but firstly if going on the eyesign I wouldn’t look to breed from it. The inner circle is very thin especially between 12 & 5.
Secondly yes very inbred. At first glance the pedigree looks good but all the results are from way back. Inbred to National 1!! This pigeon doesn’t even actually appear on the pedigree itself so must be at least 5 generations back. I can’t actually see any pigeon there that has even raced for the past 4 generations. I may be reading it wrong.
Sorry mate.
Andy this is an example of information, on the family breeding Nat winners and yes over generations. I know you are not a pedigree man, and it's really good to hear your views. I was not looking at the Eye to be honest. I was looking at key information on the family lines. Also it is a true fact we dont know what has been bred through these lines. but its good to have some indication about the birds genes. Just my thoughts. I am sure Herbots know what they were looking for.
Also a winner is a winner.
Re: Information is the key.
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:00 pm
by Andy
Devo1956 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:55 pm
Andy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:45 pm
You say this is the type you would be looking for mate but why?
Don’t want to run it down but firstly if going on the eyesign I wouldn’t look to breed from it. The inner circle is very thin especially between 12 & 5.
Secondly yes very inbred. At first glance the pedigree looks good but all the results are from way back. Inbred to National 1!! This pigeon doesn’t even actually appear on the pedigree itself so must be at least 5 generations back. I can’t actually see any pigeon there that has even raced for the past 4 generations. I may be reading it wrong.
Sorry mate.
Andy this is an example of information, on the family breeding Nat winners and yes over generations. I know you are not a pedigree man, and it's really good to hear your views. I was not looking at the Eye to be honest. I was looking at key information on the family lines. Also it is a true fact we dont know what has been bred through these lines. but its good to have some indication about the birds genes. Just my thoughts. I am sure Herbots know what they were looking for.
Also a winner is a winner.
You say I’m not a pedigree man Dev. I am if it’s worth looking at. I certainly like keeping my own pedigree’s where I have all the information about all the pigeons in a pedigree, the good and the bad. I like inbreeding and line breeding. I used pedigree’s a lot with dairy cattle. The trouble with the pedigree you put up and most you see they only have the good results on there. In this one nearly all the results are just repeats of a single pigeon 4 or 5 generations back. There is no information about any of the pigeons racing results in the pedigree itself, just what their GGGparents done many years ago or at best brothers or sisters.
Re: Information is the key.
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:56 pm
by Devo1956
Andy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:00 pm
Devo1956 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:55 pm
Andy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:45 pm
You say this is the type you would be looking for mate but why?
Don’t want to run it down but firstly if going on the eyesign I wouldn’t look to breed from it. The inner circle is very thin especially between 12 & 5.
Secondly yes very inbred. At first glance the pedigree looks good but all the results are from way back. Inbred to National 1!! This pigeon doesn’t even actually appear on the pedigree itself so must be at least 5 generations back. I can’t actually see any pigeon there that has even raced for the past 4 generations. I may be reading it wrong.
Sorry mate.
Andy this is an example of information, on the family breeding Nat winners and yes over generations. I know you are not a pedigree man, and it's really good to hear your views. I was not looking at the Eye to be honest. I was looking at key information on the family lines. Also it is a true fact we dont know what has been bred through these lines. but its good to have some indication about the birds genes. Just my thoughts. I am sure Herbots know what they were looking for.
Also a winner is a winner.
You say I’m not a pedigree man Dev. I am if it’s worth looking at. I certainly like keeping my own pedigree’s where I have all the information about all the pigeons in a pedigree, the good and the bad. I like inbreeding and line breeding. I used pedigree’s a lot with dairy cattle. The trouble with the pedigree you put up and most you see they only have the good results on there. In this one nearly all the results are just repeats of a single pigeon 4 or 5 generations back. There is no information about any of the pigeons racing results in the pedigree itself, just what their GGGparents done many years ago or at best brothers or sisters.
We have different views, mine is different to yours Andy. I think it will always be that way, and the sport goes on.
Re: Information is the key.
Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:27 am
by Murray
I am going to agree with Devo here. I think genetics from top families are important. And carry on to the next generation.
Example, my mate David bought a pair of red Jos Thone' pigeons, they were a bit old and weren't hatching eggs. Pedigrees like you would not believe. International winners in Europe right up to the grandparents on both sides. the old hen laid, we put the eggs under old Gordon and they both hatched. Pair of red cocks. He never took them away, so they sort of became mine.
One, when paired to one of my inbred Jansen x Van Loons, bred the little mealy cock that broke away and won last year.
The grandparents were old, but a young son, mated to a nice hen, produces quality pigeons. The genes are still there.
Andy you know all about this from the dairy cattle. High yielding cows come from high yielding genetics.
Re: Information is the key.
Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:05 am
by Andy
Yes we do have different views Devo. I wasn’t knocking your way mate. The point I was trying to make is that this pedigree is typical of those put out to sell pigeons. Strip away all the information written down that doesn’t actually directly involve the pigeon in the pedigree and you would be left with just a list of pigeon numbers. Out of the 30 pigeons in the pedigree only 3 have actually won anything, or have any information at all about how they raced.
I agree that a pedigree is important if looking at buying in a pigeon but you have to look at them in depth and strip away all irrelevant information put on them. I don’t think you should take any notice of what brothers, sisters, half brothers, half sisters etc have done, that means nothing to the pigeon you’re looking at. That’s like saying that Hussain Bolts brother would win the 100 & 200 metres.
A good pedigree should contain all the racing results of those birds in it, but only theirs. Along with the birds colours. I have seen pedigree’s where a pair cannot possibly of bred a bird that they are supposed to have done.
Re: Information is the key.
Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:52 am
by Devo1956
Like i say Andy, You do it your way. And enjoy the sport. Since me packing in the sport. I am still finding different ways of things other flyers do in the sport. so i will just carry on doing so. Its all about enjoying what you do. not what i should have done. End of a topic for me.
Re: Information is the key.
Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:56 am
by Buster121
Andy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:05 am
Yes we do have different views Devo. I wasn’t knocking your way mate. The point I was trying to make is that this pedigree is typical of those put out to sell pigeons. Strip away all the information written down that doesn’t actually directly involve the pigeon in the pedigree and you would be left with just a list of pigeon numbers. Out of the 30 pigeons in the pedigree only 3 have actually won anything, or have any information at all about how they raced.
I agree that a pedigree is important if looking at buying in a pigeon but you have to look at them in depth and strip away all irrelevant information put on them. I don’t think you should take any notice of what brothers, sisters, half brothers, half sisters etc have done, that means nothing to the pigeon you’re looking at. That’s like saying that Hussain Bolts brother would win the 100 & 200 metres.
A good pedigree should contain all the racing results of those birds in it, but only theirs. Along with the birds colours. I have seen pedigree’s where a pair cannot possibly of bred a bird that they are supposed to have done.
Have to agree with the comments about siblings etc, it is not what they have achieved what matters it is the one what you are interested in that does