Breeding for the future.

[NeilA]

I mean in general Andy not just your situation myself included
I have a few good lines but I don’t have a family producing winners from each nest in the stock shed even though there are birds in there with some good prizes 5 cocks are related I would think they have 25 good fed between them one is a double fed winner and dropped with fed winners on 3 other occasions but I very much doubt they will be throwing winners for fun and there probably the closest I have got to a family
I am some way off having a family like Mike had with his Gaby pigeons

[Andy]

I would say you have a good foundation there Neil and plenty to work with.
You say you don’t know whether they would breed much? Have you not bred anything from them? That’s why I would breed from them while they are still racing. Just a pair before the season starts. This would at least give you an idea before retiring them and then finding out they aren’t any good. Or on the other side you might want to retire them earlier if proving to be throwing the goods.

[NeilA]

I would say you have a good foundation there Neil and plenty to work with.
You say you don’t know whether they would breed much? Have you not bred anything from them? That’s why I would breed from them while they are still racing. Just a pair before the season starts. This would at least give you an idea before retiring them and then finding out they aren’t any good. Or on the other side you might want to retire them earlier if proving to be throwing the goods.

I don’t disagree
My problem is I hate my cocks pumping ybs near to the start of the season I just like 6-7 good weeks to teach them and get them fit
So I would need to pair earlier to do that
Then I would need to put them babies on the dark to compete the only way I do ok is having late ybs hatched around late March into early May these fly well and compete for 5-6 weeks so race 3 the late April/ May babies are a great help

If I don’t put January/ February bred on the dark I might as well not have a clock set after race 2/3
So then there is the next issue February the sparrow hawks are relentless right into late March soon as you move one in within a week another moves in when I would’ve having the youngsters out

Plus I am flying on my own and my work is strange hours 13 hour on a Monday for example so having a structure to operate a system I find hard and I can be on a call out another pain
So I’m stuck either breeding late out of the cocks then getting all the protein and crap out of them and into a real condition to compete or being last most weeks with the babies or not even bothering to race ybs after the first week of August

The answer is a small team of feeders for the race cocks eggs I guess but again more to do 12 months of the year

[MIL]

Yes you have. And you will breed your own family.

A family of pigeons is easy to do just leave them to get in with it like a lot of studs that buy to sell do

A family of homers that win the odd card very easy also it’s not hard to go from one card a year to 5 cards a year over 3 years

A family of outstanding racers that perform week in week out is very different
I struggle with that

I agree with virtually all you say Neil - apart from that last comment "I struggle with that"

You're a good flier and you know what your strengths and weaknesses are, and you modify your Management around that

That's very smart


As you say, building a family is a piece of piss. Anybody can do that - you just keep breeding consecutive generations

Building a winning family is different.

I have only owned 3 distance pigeons ever in my life (all three scored well out of France) so I'm talking from a sprint perspective now. Building a family of outstanding sprinters doesn't take forever. I'd certainly achieved it inside 5 years. By that I mean that I had breeders that were responsible for 3 generations of winners in that period. You race them relentlessly asking them the acid question every week. You cut the bullshit excuses and you get real with yourself. (Not you personally Neil). By analysing the performances you find the elite - you then build around the elite

The first Gaby youngsters I raced was in the year 2000. Within 5 weeks of the start of the 2000 YB season I'd won the Brereton Banks's 5 Bird Classic (winning £1,000) and the Staffordshire Moorlands Gold Ring Race (sending 2) winning £1,000 again

You test, you analyse, you find the elite and you build around them

That's how you develop a family

Then, you keep your eyes open to find something that might complement/improve them. But you follow the same core principle with them too

You test, you analyse, you find the elite and you build around them

At all times though cut the bullshit excuses, cos you're only kidding yourself

[NeilA]

good advice Mike
We race to win be sprint or distance I always say homers and racers but you put it much better
I just hope people listen to your advice having been there and done it
One thing I worked out is to listen to top fanciers in a competitive area not ones with 100’s of pigeons where they flying against average competition
Yourself and Shane to me are the top level
You both fed very similar with no real interest in my measuring obsession but both fed for the job in hand and for the race season
But what I noticed you can both pick a pigeon your hen bred me 4 feds winners Shane’s cock the same
I remember you said look out for the hen if I can’t get her dam at your sale
Shane said I will send you a cock that’s going to breed you winners but never lose his line even if you have a bum year

That’s the skill I would love to have

[Andy]

Yes breeding a family of winning sprinters is easy Mike, I’ve done it, and kept the same family winning for 20 years plus. I didn’t need to be bringing in pigeons every year. I’ve never had an old bird race team of more than 16 pigeons, so didn’t rely on numbers.
Neil you say you don’t want to breed early from your race cocks. I understand what you’re saying but I think you’re missing out on breeding from your best pigeons. I pair the widowhoods early and then split them when the youngsters are 14 days old. They are then repaired a month before racing starts and let them sit for 10 days. Still gives time to get them right for the first race. I don’t race on the darkness as I’m not that interested on young bird racing. I’m the only member in our club that doesn’t do darkness.

[NeilA]

See I like to win with ybs Andy or I only really have 10/11 races a year
Normally say of them 4 the wind will be dead against you , so it seems pointless keeping pigeons all year unless you have a go at ybs , obviously I’m talking about sprinting

[MIL]

Yes breeding a family of winning sprinters is easy Mike, I’ve done it, and kept the same family winning for 20 years plus. I didn’t need to be bringing in pigeons every year. I’ve never had an old bird race team of more than 16 pigeons, so didn’t rely on numbers.

Numbers is fine with me too Andy

I was Worcester Federation Champion Loft when it was 47 clubs sending 10,000 birds a week

I raced 16 cocks and 35 yb

In my personal opinion, with an approach like yours Andy you'd not have survived in that competition

It's ruthless

I'm not talking about winning Clubs here.

My "Bandit" cock that won that Banks's Classic in 2000 was a 1/2 Brother to "Katchit" who won the NIPA National out of Roscarberry for McGimpsry Bros in N.Ireland and his nephew won 1st UBI Combine for Don Green from Fougeres, and another cousin won the Scottish National outta Maidstone

So, you stick to your methods, and if it suits and works then great I commend you. - i'll do the same

[Andy]

Yes breeding a family of winning sprinters is easy Mike, I’ve done it, and kept the same family winning for 20 years plus. I didn’t need to be bringing in pigeons every year. I’ve never had an old bird race team of more than 16 pigeons, so didn’t rely on numbers.

Numbers is fine with me too Andy

I was Worcester Federation Champion Loft when it was 47 clubs sending 10,000 birds a week

I raced 16 cocks and 35 yb

In my personal opinion, with an approach like yours Andy you'd not have survived in that competition

It's ruthless

I'm not talking about winning Clubs here.

My "Bandit" cock that won that Banks's Classic in 2000 was a 1/2 Brother to "Katchit" who won the NIPA National out of Roscarberry for McGimpsry Bros in N.Ireland and his nephew won 1st UBI Combine for Don Green from Fougeres, and another cousin won the Scottish National outta Maidstone

So, you stick to your methods, and if it suits and works then great I commend you. - i'll do the same

I must say Mike that until I came back into the sport with the intention of just flying over the channel so with the BICC, BBC & CSCFC I had only raced in clubs. I hadn’t raced in any of the classics or nationals. I never had the time or interest in those sort of races. I did once send with the NRCC to Lerwick, 650 miles, when the Portsmouth NR Fed were convoyed by them. I won 1st club, 4th Fed.
The only ever race I raced in other than club racing was in an open race from Guernsey, 126 miles, back in the early 90s. I sent 3 of my widowhood cocks that were winning on the North Road. This was the first time they had been flown South Road and first time over the channel. I was 2nd & 3rd open with the 3rd one not too far behind.
I will stick with my methods but look forward to retiring in the next year or 2 and having more time with the birds. It will mean another move though.

[MIL]

Cool.

For me though, the real acid test of a successful "family" is when that family not only win for you but then go to here there and everywhere in the UK and make their mark winning races in all sorts of competition, under all sorts of different management styles.

When your birds win in like that, then you know for sure you're on the right path